Interview: Henry Mintzberg

Professor at McGill University Sherbrooke, Montreal, Canada

AMCF Annual Meeting 2008 in New York

Henry Mintzberg, you have spent much of your career conducting research in the field of management, focusing in particular on the structure of organizations, and you have published numerous books on these subjects. "Structures and Dynamics of Organizations," published by Editions d'Organisation in 1981, is a well-known book in France, and since its publication in French, it has become a reference textbook in management schools. Should we conclude that, for you, organization is at the heart of value creation and therefore central to all human-created wealth?

Henry Mintzberg:  I wouldn't say that. I think it's a contributing factor, but it also comes from people's energy, it comes from culture, leadership... So I think it's a mix of all of these things. But of course, organization is the big problem, especially since we don't understand it very well. So we're wrong when we create organizations that all look more or less the same. With new technologies added to that, everyone is forced to adapt.

During the AMCF gala dinner, you spoke about managers and leaders, and you made a point of clearly distinguishing between them, giving the impression of favoring management over leadership. Can we expand on this topic? for our readers?

Henry Mintzberg:  I think it was a big mistake to separate leadership from management. Incidentally, let's note that Peter Drucker also separated managers from directors with the same idea in mind. The consequence is that we now have leaders who are not managers. They don't know what's going on... It's the mortgage crisis: you have people who run large companies and don't even know what's going on in their company. So we need more management and to combine it.
with leadership and above all not to separate them...

Again, referring to your speech at the AMCF gala dinner, it seems to me that you cited three key points, let's say three ways of providing management consulting to companies. Something resonant in the ear like gerontology, education and obstetrics… Can you clarify your point of view?

Henry Mintzberg:  There's geriatric consulting, pediatric consulting, and obstetric consulting. Let's say that geriatric consulting is about keeping old, ailing companies alive. So it's palliative care. And that's where the money and the problems are, of course. And therefore, a lot of consulting work boils down to that. But I don't think this is as functional for society as pediatric consulting, which is about helping young companies grow and increase their success. Finally, there's obstetric consulting, which is about assisted birth for new companies, those of primary interest.

Does this mean that in the coming months, with the current crisis, we could see large injections of money into dying companies (to the detriment of young shoots)?

Henry Mintzberg:  Exactly. We've known for decades that a large proportion of new jobs are created by mid-sized and small businesses, not large ones... So consider the irony of bailing out the big auto companies. A fabulous irony: we're going to save the economy by letting these companies lay off even more workers!

Which brings us to the last point of your speech, which concerned HR, and more specifically the use of the term "Human Resources." You told us that this term should not be used because all resources are "disposable." Is that precisely what you were saying?

Henry Mintzberg:  A resource is one thing. I'm a human being. So I'm not a human resource. And I think that kind of language is reductive. Calling it human capital or even a human asset is almost worse. Downsizing, mass layoffs, have become commonplace as that vocabulary has become commonplace. If people are resources, then you can fire them quietly. Sure, some companies have their backs to the wall, but in most cases, they're all
simply less profitable than analysts had hoped.

If you had a few final words for our readers about the downsizing and layoffs they'll likely have to deal with in the near future, if they become inevitable, what would they be?

Henry Mintzberg:  Look, cash-strapped companies will have to react radically. I can't disagree with that. But that said, it's a bit too easy to resort to downsizing. Most layoffs are the nervous symptoms of an already ailing management culture.

Finally, Henry Mintzberg, you revealed to us in New York that you are preparing a new book, which should be released soon in English and French. Can you tell us a little about it?

Henry Mintzberg: It should be called Managing and should draw on the underlying parts of my earlier books. It's a return to my roots, in a way. Henry Mintzberg, thank you for these comments.

Interview by Bertrand Villeret
Editor-in-Chief
ConsultingNewsLine